"We might lose the festivals we've still got if we don't act", NSW's Minister for Music John Graham on the Festivals Amendment Bill 2024

After an extensive review into the state's festival sector, NSW's government found last month that "the regulatory framework would benefit from a closer focus on harm reduction, industry sustainability, and ensuring costs for festivals in NSW are at a level comparable to other states, while still prioritising health and safety at festival events."

These findings have helped to inform changes to the state’s Festivals Act of 2018, brought in just a few weeks’ ago, as the Music Festivals Amendment Bill 2024.

Read: NSW introduces the Music Festivals Amendment Bill 2024

NSW’s Minister for Music, Minister John Graham, spoke with Mixmag ANZ about what these changes will mean for smaller festivals, pill testing, genre policing and much more that has greatly impacted dance and electronic festivals in NSW, and nationally, for years.

We’ve chosen to provide the transcript of our interview with the Minister in full.

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Q: Minister, thanks so much for your time. Which of the changes to the Festivals Act do you believe will have the greatest impact?

Minister John Graham: Firstly, it is worth recognising that festivals have really been under pressure. We've had an incredible festival scene in New South Wales, I think partly because the venues have been under such pressure here. So, as a result, our festivals have been really important to the music ecosystem. The goal is to back them both with some financial support helping get their costs down, but also a more supportive regulatory environment.

I don't think there's a single measure that will be specifically important. It's really the philosophy shifting from a punitive regulatory regime to one that's supportive of festivals. I think that overall approach is actually the most important thing. Having the roundtable where agencies and festivals can actually hammer out the support with a direction from the government and a legislative regime which is more supportive, that approach is probably the most important step.

Q: This last week we’ve seen a story emerge from Club 77, which appears to have been targeted by police & regulators after being allowed extended trading again, like it would have historically done pre-lockouts. What do you think are the biggest issues that venues are facing, and how is that influencing festivals?

Minister John Graham: I think for venues or festivals, it's really getting caught between costs being up. That's especially hard for the festival sector because of the costs of touring, partly driven by the rate of the Australian dollar for the internationals, but also the cost of living being up and that driving audiences down, ticket sales down. That's really the pincer that venues and festivals have been caught between.

They're still often hanging in there, and we think the potential is really significant. I've got no doubt the long-term support is there, I think post-COVID there's a real sense that the sense of community that you get from being together with people at a venue or at a festival is irreplaceable, but we've got to get them through this tough period which could extend over the next year or two.

If we can succeed in doing that, the future is really bright but it starts with a real acknowledgement that there's significant pressures on both venues and festivals at the moment.

Q: There’s such a huge pool of money available for festivals to claim, however this is only for festivals over 15,000 people in size. I’m curious as to why this number is so large, when such a small number of festivals actually reach this number of people.

Minister John Graham: I want to acknowledge how important those festivals are. This is an ecosystem. So what we need is not just the big festivals, but also we need festivals growing up… particularly to grow new audiences. That's really important.

So that's why we want to shift the whole regulatory environment. That's why this has to change for all festivals. There is other support available for festivals as well.

The reason the emergency funding is focused on the big festivals is that's really what we're most worried about losing out of the system over this period. If you lose them, you may not get them back. It takes years to build up to some of those key festivals. They're really important parts of the festival ecosystem. If we lose them, we may not have them back for a generation. So that's where the focus has been. We're open to other support. We certainly want the regulatory regime to be as supportive as possible of all festivals. And we really really want to help cut some of the pressures, cut some of the costs on the other festivals as well.

Q: MODE Festival, which took place just this last weekend on Cockatoo Island, was reported to have earned a grant from a NSW arts organisation that then went towards paying NSW Police. Many people, including Cate Faehrmann, who I know raised this in parliament, have pointed to the fact that that’s essentially just one government organisation paying another. I’d love to know what your take is on why a festival can act as a middle man for government money being given & taken in different directions.

Minister John Graham: The goal here is to really look at any of those costs that venues or festivals are under pressure with and work out: “Is this required? Is this sensible?”

It's one of the reasons why in the festival changes, there's an appeal process for the first time in New South Wales, where if charges for festivals don't look like they stack up, don't look like they're sensible, there's a way to appeal it.

Now, in theory, that might've been possible beforehand. In practice, that just wasn't the case.

So now there'll be an ability to appeal those costs. What we'll do is work really closely if organisers are saying, “look, we don't understand why this is happening,” or “we don't think this is justified,” we'll work through and there'll be a second look at it.

Any of those will be closely scrutinised, and let's see how that goes, but the goal here is to make sure we've got the right settings. It is of concern if taxpayers are paying money to support some of these events but it's just going back into government agencies.

Some of the time that'll be important but we want to be sure that's the case, and I thought the Mode Festival example was a good one where it's sensible to ask that question. I've heard back from people who've been in the past or were there just recently, and it's a fantastic event, but we want to know that the events we're supporting are also being supported appropriately and at the right level.

Read: Mode Festival forced to pay for NSW Police with arts grant funding

Q: I’d like to know what the appeal process will actually look like when it comes to user paid policing. Could you run us through how this will work?

Minister John Graham: There's two levels to the appeal process. If there's an issue with the costs or the conditions that are applied to festivals, festival organisers will have a chance to appeal that. That'll be internal to the agency.

So, for example, on the police side, a senior team at the police will look at that and say, “is this the right setting?” That'll be the same for example for some of the health costs. So if there's those agency costs that are driving up the costs of holding an event there'll be a chance to get it looked at again at a senior level so that it's more transparent.

We know that in some cases, the costs are at a level where the event just can't go ahead. In that case, if the event might not succeed, if it might fall over altogether, there'll be a chance for some agencies outside of the agencies putting the costs on to have a look and say, “look, should government absorb some of these costs altogether?”

That won't happen all the time. It's really got to have a high threshold for if the event might not succeed. But, over the next couple of years, that could be really important because we know some of these big events haven't gone ahead because of the cost pressures.

Q: There’s a big focus on health in these changes to the legislation. Can you explain why this wording was so crucial, and how it will differ from what festivals have dealt with so far?

Minister John Graham: When the review happened about how the act had worked, one of the points that was really made by the agencies as they looked at it was the initial health focus had really been lost a bit over time.

That's really what we want to focus in on.

So what the changes have done is really put the health plans at the centre of the new act, and I think that's really important. We do want a focus on health. We do want a dialogue, particularly between festival organisers and the health agencies. The organisers I've spoken to have said that's actually been hugely helpful over time to have a better dialogue.

Yes, there'll be a need some of the time for safety regulation as well, but it's really that health dialogue which has made festivals safer, made festival patrons safer.

Q: Health, to many, would indicate a greater understanding of the needs of festivals in regard to drug use. Is there consideration to bring in pill testing or at least trial it in NSW?

Minister John Graham: The government's just months away from having its drug summit, which will meet over the course of four days, including in regional New South Wales, including in Sydney, and that's really the key forum for that discussion.

There'll be an association of organisers present, and I'm expecting them to give some really practical views about how this works to aid that discussion.

Q: For a number of years there’s been consistent reporting of ‘genre policing’, that is, restrictions or more pressure being placed on specific genres, specifically dance music & hip hop. I’d love to know how these new regulations will hope to address and navigate those sorts of claims.

Minister John Graham: To me, this is one of the big cultural changes that we need to drive.

I don't accept it's the role of government to tell people what genre of music to listen to, and you're talking there about two of the most popular genres in the world, two of the most popular genres in Australia.

It is appropriate for government to say we want to keep people safe. We want to focus those efforts on a fence that might be high risk, but it's not appropriate to be saying, we're going to tell people you can or can't listen to particular genres. That has been a problem in New South Wales and in Australia, so we're looking to change that culture.

We announced on the weekend that we're stopping councils regulating venues, telling them what genres they can put on the stage. We've got more work to do here, so I see it as a real culture change over time, but government should focus on the things it does well and telling people what style of music to listen to isn't one of them.

Q: NSW Police’s user paid police costs are higher than every other state in the country, and some states don’t even ask for these costs from festivals. Can you explain why this is the case?

Minister John Graham: Firstly, there is a real question here. I've seen the evidence from the industry about the competing costs, and it's hard to explain why costs are different, for example, to Victoria, and so different.

That's why we've looked down south at that appeal mechanism that does work in Victoria, and that's our first attempt to really grapple with this issue. So I think that'll give us much better information about why the costs are so different and some really practical examples to really test what's going on.

While that's rolling out, we're not prepared to wait and see. That's why we're also assisting festivals directly during this tough period. So we're taking a pretty pragmatic approach. I hope it'll lead to more transparency over time. I hope it'll lead to lower costs over time, but we've got to really work through this appeal process. That has worked in Victoria. That's why I'm hopeful it will lead to change here.

Q: As someone who has worked on music festivals myself, I know that often police are charging for overtime rates. If the police officer making decisions on police resourcing may themselves earn overtime, as well as their colleagues, would you expect that a conflict of interest declaration be made?

Minister John Graham: Police make the point that the money goes back to Treasury, not to them. So I think that's one of the things that is an important point in their favour.

However, the key question from a government point of view is: “Have we got the right level of support for festivals, the right level of support on the health side, but also on the policing side?” That isn't a discussion that's been easy for organisers to have with government

up till now.

That transparency, that ability to raise the question and know that it is okay to raise it through this appeal process, I think is really the next stage we're moving into. So we're really looking forward to seeing what that produces, but it's a discussion that needed to happen in New South Wales.

Q: Again with respect to the police, I wonder whether, as someone who is acutely aware of what costs have done to the festival industry, you’re concerned about what impact charging protests could have. Do you see any kind of parallel between either of those situations?

Minister John Graham: I think the concerns about costs have been raised with a range of events or there's the more recent discussion you're referring to. I think the changes we've announced really focus in on festivals because of how important they've been, because of how tough it's been right at the moment…

Look, I'm honestly really worried we might lose the festivals we've still got if we don't act. So, yes, there's some bigger issues there, but this is tailored, focused support on the festival question because of how important they are to the music ecosystem in New South Wales.

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Jack Colquhoun is Mixmag ANZ’s Managing Editor, find him on Instagram.